Fwd: [MBIX-Members] MBIX AGM May 4th, 2016
FYI. -Adam (one of the outgoing directors) -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [MBIX-Members] MBIX AGM May 4th, 2016 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:12:56 -0500 From: Bill Reid <billreid@shaw.ca> Reply-To: MBIX Members <members@lists.mbix.ca> To: members@lists.mbix.ca <members@lists.mbix.ca> *Manitoba Internet Exchange Annual General Meeting* Wednesday May 4^th , 2016 4 to 6 p.m. AGM to start at 4:30 p.m. King's Head Pub <http://www.kingshead.ca/> Open to all interested in IXs MBIX will be holding its 4^th AGM next month. There are 4 Board of Director positions open for election. Jacques Latour from CIRA will give an update on Canadian IXs. We will have a social time before and after the meeting. Drinks and snacks will be provided by CIRA and MBIX. Look forward to seeing you on May 4^th , Bill
So I checked out their website "The Manitoba Internet Exchange is a not-for-profit corporation mandated to act as a junction between multiple IP networks. Its members are able to directly connect with one another over an unmetered ethernet connection, to exchange local Internet traffic. " So I am a bit confused as to why anyone would want to do this. What is gained by this? On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 at 8:49:59 PM UTC-5, athompso wrote:
FYI. -Adam (one of the outgoing directors)
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [MBIX-Members] MBIX AGM May 4th, 2016 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:12:56 -0500 From: Bill Reid <bil...@shaw.ca> <javascript:> Reply-To: MBIX Members <mem...@lists.mbix.ca> <javascript:> To: mem...@lists.mbix.ca <javascript:> <mem...@lists.mbix.ca> <javascript:>
*Manitoba Internet Exchange Annual General Meeting* Wednesday May 4th, 2016 4 to 6 p.m. AGM to start at 4:30 p.m. King's Head Pub <http://www.kingshead.ca/>
Open to all interested in IXs
MBIX will be holding its 4th AGM next month. There are 4 Board of Director positions open for election. Jacques Latour from CIRA will give an update on Canadian IXs.
We will have a social time before and after the meeting.
Drinks and snacks will be provided by CIRA and MBIX.
Look forward to seeing you on May 4th, Bill
It's a way for local ISPs to connect and exchange data without the cost of having to go through an upstream provider. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_exchange_point) On 14 Apr 2016 2:29 p.m., "'shab' via Discuss" <discuss@skullspace.ca> wrote:
So I checked out their website "The Manitoba Internet Exchange is a not-for-profit corporation mandated to act as a junction between multiple IP networks. Its members are able to directly connect with one another over an unmetered ethernet connection, to exchange local Internet traffic. " So I am a bit confused as to why anyone would want to do this. What is gained by this?
On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 at 8:49:59 PM UTC-5, athompso wrote:
FYI. -Adam (one of the outgoing directors)
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [MBIX-Members] MBIX AGM May 4th, 2016 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:12:56 -0500 From: Bill Reid <bil...@shaw.ca> Reply-To: MBIX Members <mem...@lists.mbix.ca> To: mem...@lists.mbix.ca <mem...@lists.mbix.ca>
*Manitoba Internet Exchange Annual General Meeting* Wednesday May 4th, 2016 4 to 6 p.m. AGM to start at 4:30 p.m. King's Head Pub <http://www.kingshead.ca/>
Open to all interested in IXs
MBIX will be holding its 4th AGM next month. There are 4 Board of Director positions open for election. Jacques Latour from CIRA will give an update on Canadian IXs.
We will have a social time before and after the meeting.
Drinks and snacks will be provided by CIRA and MBIX.
Look forward to seeing you on May 4th, Bill
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And did MBIX ever get their local caching servers? i.e. Youtube, etc.?
IIRC we've got a couple of root nameservers (both CIRA and PCH), stratum-1 NTP, and an Akamai cache. No google cache until someone the size of Allstream joins. And all of Manitoba combined doesn't rate a Netflix cache a9cording to what I've been told :-(. Hurricane Electric still offers free IPv6 transit, which for an ISP means you can offload ~50% of your content traffic (FB, etc.) if you're able to get your customers onto IPv6. It's amazing how much of a difference having a root nameserver 1msec away makes to user experience when surfing the web. -Adam On April 14, 2016 9:33:20 PM CDT, John Lange <john@johnlange.ca> wrote:
And did MBIX ever get their local caching servers? i.e. Youtube, etc.?
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Why would a root name server be significantly different than a normal DNS server? The IPs would be cached most of the time. I believe MTS has google and netflix caches but I don't know this for a fact. John
For the average end user using their ISPs nameserver, it's... well, out-of-scope. But MBIX isn't for individuals, it's for ISPs and enterprises who want substantially-enhanced connectivity. If you run your own recursing resolver, however, whether because you don't trust your ISPs, or you are an ISP yourself, there's a direct correlation between how quickly you can get an answer from a root NS and how quickly you can get the answer back to the end-user. Without MBIX, the closest root nameserver most Manitobans have access to is typically 20-30msec away from their ISP. Ditto for .CA nameservers. (The PCH and CIRA D-root servers also host a bunch of gTLDs, IIRC, don't know which.) So while caching helps a lot, that cached data does expire frequently. Consider how many HTTP requests are involved in loading, say, the Facebook homepage. Consider how many of those go to different domains. Now shave ~10msec off (potentially) every single one of those DNS queries. By the time you multiply it out over a day's work... times an entire ISP's worth of customers... Better DNS is kind of like having better plumbing in your building. No-one thinks about it: as long as the bathroom *functions* everyone can get their jobs done. But having better-working sinks, toilets, etc. adds up to just a tiny bit smoother experience, and those seconds saved do add up over time. Plus, it also means you can still browse the 'net when the root nameservers are being DDOS'd again :-) -Adam On 2016-04-14 22:38, John Lange wrote:
Why would a root name server be significantly different than a normal DNS server? The IPs would be cached most of the time.
I believe MTS has google and netflix caches but I don't know this for a fact.
John
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On 2016-04-15 Adam Thompson wrote:
For the average end user using their ISPs nameserver, it's... well, out-of-scope. But MBIX isn't for individuals, it's for ISPs and
Is there a way to leverage this (MBIX NS) for the average joe (me) who runs their own resolving/caching BIND on Shaw?
I suppose, with MBIX's permission (perhaps for a special "individual use only" fee), you could simply use MBIX's NS IP addresses in your NS settings. You would get some of the benefits, like avoiding the DNS query leaving Winnipeg if it's locally resolvable by MBIX. But really, what business does the average joe have in using MBIX services for free, when MBIX is a clearly-stated "members only" service (at $1200 per year), not a public freebie. Sounds like a typical stingy Winnipegers' attitude. Hartmut W Sager - Tel +1-204-339-8331, +1-204-515-1701, +1-204-515-1700, +1-810-471-4600, +1-909-361-6005 On 15 April 2016 at 16:10, Trevor Cordes <trevor@tecnopolis.ca> wrote:
On 2016-04-15 Adam Thompson wrote:
For the average end user using their ISPs nameserver, it's... well, out-of-scope. But MBIX isn't for individuals, it's for ISPs and
Is there a way to leverage this (MBIX NS) for the average joe (me) who runs their own resolving/caching BIND on Shaw? _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list Roundtable@muug.mb.ca http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
Actually, no, that won't work anyway. All of the services (except Akamai, and I will admit that both MTS and Shaw have their own Akamai caches anyway) use anycast IP addresses, so you literally "can't get there from here" unless you (or your ISP) peers at MBIX. If you use those IPs, you'll be magically directed at the "closest" node that your ISP has access to - usually in Calgary, Toronto, or Chicago. As I said, MBIX is not intended for individual consumers; it's intended for the ISPs that serve individual consumers, and medium-to-large businesses that see value in having faster access to the various DNS services, NTP services, etc., and/or the other members' networks. For a slightly artificial example, a Credit Union might consider joining MBIX in order to be able to say that your secure banking transactions never leave the province, never mind the country. I'm quite confident that neither the NSA nor CSE have installed a tap at MBIX - that would be difficult to hide from us. (Of course, since neither MTS nor Shaw peer at MBIX yet, it's still statistically very likely that the NSA is listening to your secure banking transactions no matter who you use. Of course, we all know HTTP/S is completely secure. And they only collect metadata anyway, right? *cough*) Mind you, at the same time, that hypothetical CU now has access to a high-accuracy, high-availability NTP cluster without having to acquire their own stratum-1 time source, and they could host their DNS on CIRA's D-ROOT system for guaranteed global availability, and... and... and... One other thing to note about MBIX: it's what's called a "Default-Free Zone". MBIX is *not* an ISP. MBIX will not route your traffic to the internet at large. MBIX can only get your traffic from one MBIX member to another. Of course, many MBIX members are ISPs, so it's easy to make transit agreements with any number of them. -Adam On 2016-04-15 20:46, Hartmut W Sager wrote:
I suppose, with MBIX's permission (perhaps for a special "individual use only" fee), you could simply use MBIX's NS IP addresses in your NS settings. You would get some of the benefits, like avoiding the DNS query leaving Winnipeg if it's locally resolvable by MBIX.
But really, what business does the average joe have in using MBIX services for free, when MBIX is a clearly-stated "members only" service (at $1200 per year), not a public freebie. Sounds like a typical stingy Winnipegers' attitude.
Hartmut W Sager - Tel +1-204-339-8331, +1-204-515-1701, +1-204-515-1700, +1-810-471-4600, +1-909-361-6005
On 15 April 2016 at 16:10, Trevor Cordes <trevor@tecnopolis.ca <mailto:trevor@tecnopolis.ca>> wrote:
On 2016-04-15 Adam Thompson wrote: > For the average end user using their ISPs nameserver, it's... well, > out-of-scope. But MBIX isn't for individuals, it's for ISPs and
Is there a way to leverage this (MBIX NS) for the average joe (me) who runs their own resolving/caching BIND on Shaw? _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list Roundtable@muug.mb.ca <mailto:Roundtable@muug.mb.ca> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list Roundtable@muug.mb.ca http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
Thank you Adam, that was very enlightening. I have only limited knowledge of these Internet architecture matters. Hartmut W Sager - Tel +1-204-339-8331, +1-204-515-1701, +1-204-515-1700, +1-810-471-4600, +1-909-361-6005 On 15 April 2016 at 21:22, Adam Thompson <athompso@athompso.net> wrote:
Actually, no, that won't work anyway. All of the services (except Akamai, and I will admit that both MTS and Shaw have their own Akamai caches anyway) use anycast IP addresses, so you literally "can't get there from here" unless you (or your ISP) peers at MBIX. If you use those IPs, you'll be magically directed at the "closest" node that your ISP has access to - usually in Calgary, Toronto, or Chicago.
As I said, MBIX is not intended for individual consumers; it's intended for the ISPs that serve individual consumers, and medium-to-large businesses that see value in having faster access to the various DNS services, NTP services, etc., and/or the other members' networks.
For a slightly artificial example, a Credit Union might consider joining MBIX in order to be able to say that your secure banking transactions never leave the province, never mind the country. I'm quite confident that neither the NSA nor CSE have installed a tap at MBIX - that would be difficult to hide from us. (Of course, since neither MTS nor Shaw peer at MBIX yet, it's still statistically very likely that the NSA is listening to your secure banking transactions no matter who you use. Of course, we all know HTTP/S is completely secure. And they only collect metadata anyway, right? *cough*) Mind you, at the same time, that hypothetical CU now has access to a high-accuracy, high-availability NTP cluster without having to acquire their own stratum-1 time source, and they could host their DNS on CIRA's D-ROOT system for guaranteed global availability, and... and... and...
One other thing to note about MBIX: it's what's called a "Default-Free Zone". MBIX is *not* an ISP. MBIX will not route your traffic to the internet at large. MBIX can only get your traffic from one MBIX member to another. Of course, many MBIX members are ISPs, so it's easy to make transit agreements with any number of them.
-Adam
On 2016-04-15 20:46, Hartmut W Sager wrote:
I suppose, with MBIX's permission (perhaps for a special "individual use only" fee), you could simply use MBIX's NS IP addresses in your NS settings. You would get some of the benefits, like avoiding the DNS query leaving Winnipeg if it's locally resolvable by MBIX.
But really, what business does the average joe have in using MBIX services for free, when MBIX is a clearly-stated "members only" service (at $1200 per year), not a public freebie. Sounds like a typical stingy Winnipegers' attitude.
Hartmut W Sager - Tel +1-204-339-8331, +1-204-515-1701, +1-204-515-1700, +1-810-471-4600, +1-909-361-6005
On 15 April 2016 at 16:10, Trevor Cordes <trevor@tecnopolis.ca> wrote:
On 2016-04-15 Adam Thompson wrote:
For the average end user using their ISPs nameserver, it's... well, out-of-scope. But MBIX isn't for individuals, it's for ISPs and
Is there a way to leverage this (MBIX NS) for the average joe (me) who runs their own resolving/caching BIND on Shaw? _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list Roundtable@muug.mb.ca http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing listRoundtable@muug.mb.cahttp://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
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10Mbps, it's usually A LOT cheaper!)
The short answer is: switch to an ISP that is an MBIX member, or pressure your ISP to peer at MBIX here in Winnipeg. If you wanted to join MBIX without a physical connection of some sort, rent 1U of rack space at either GSC or Les.net's YWG2 datacenter, put in a cheap Mikrotik router, and run a tunnel over your Shaw connection. Obviously the benefits aren't as... obvious, when you do that, mostly thanks to latency and bandwidth asymmetry. Most of the ISPs who are members at the moment are WISPs (Wireless ISPs). A few things distinguish WISPs from traditional ISPs, in general (broadly speaking): 1. usually noticeably more expensive than MTS or Shaw (for residential and/or cheap-ass business customers; as soon as you need upload speeds 2. usually much more flexible than MTS or Shaw (many of them will do custom builds of just about anything you want or create custom packages to fit your needs) 3. lower download speeds, but typically much higher upload speeds, than MTS or Shaw (symmetric bandwidth is usually available, at least on a best-effort, shared-spectrum basis) 4. lower bandwidth caps than MTS or Shaw (depending on your package) 5. can provide service where MTS and/or Shaw can't or won't at a reasonable price Between the various ISPs listed at http://www.mbix.ca/peers/, all of Winnipeg is well-covered, all of the surrounding region, and a widely-varied smattering of areas covering pretty much the entire southern half of the province. One important fallacy I'll address right now: professionally-installed wireless service is NOT any less reliable than wireline (DSL/Cable). Lots of people seem to think it's unreliable, and that's simply not true. In the relatively rare case where your wireless link is unreliable, it's pretty much always because you're at the extreme edge of the service territory and you probably told the sales rep that you didn't care if the link wasn't very reliable. And then you probably had to convince the installer, too, so at that point it's your own damn fault. Most people in that situation are just happy they can get something better than dial-up because of where they are. Of course, some companies will be better than others, so YMMV. -Adam On 2016-04-15 16:10, Trevor Cordes wrote:
On 2016-04-15 Adam Thompson wrote:
For the average end user using their ISPs nameserver, it's... well, out-of-scope. But MBIX isn't for individuals, it's for ISPs and Is there a way to leverage this (MBIX NS) for the average joe (me) who runs their own resolving/caching BIND on Shaw?
participants (7)
-
Adam Thompson -
Bill Reid -
Hartmut W Sager -
Jay Smith -
John Lange -
shab -
Trevor Cordes