Are you kidding? I *always* have time for reading! :-)

Reading between the lines (do correct me) I should hire a duly certified and licensed person to run my new cables as I'm unqualified.

As an aside (not really relevant) I have never and would never run any kind of cable in air ducts. It just feels wrong to me. I did run a fair bit of Cat 5e some years ago in my previous house, but in walls and above the suspended ceiling in the basement. There is some existing network and coax run here and there in my current house; I have no idea who would have run it or what kind of cable they used.

On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 1:00 PM Adam Thompson <athompso@athompso.netmailto:athompso@athompso.net> wrote: (If you don't have time to read it all, just read 3c, 2a, and 2d in that order.)

1. In any sort of catastrophic loss, especially fire, home insurance carriers will look for convenient excuses to deny or restrict your coverage. Self-installed low-voltage cabling with the wrong rating has been used as an excuse in the past. Losing our home without insurance would bankrupt most of us. (I've even heard of insurers that will deny e.g. flood claims because of improper electrical installs - remember insurance carriers are actually in the business of *not* paying you.)

2. The three general categories of cable ratings, from worst to best from fire & code perspective, are General/CM, Riser/CMR, and Plenum/CMP. General is usually cheapest, Plenum is usually the most expensive.

2a. AFAICT, you need riser/CMR-rated (or the more expensive plenum/CMP) cable inside your walls. In most residential construction, your air ducts are the only plenums you have; if you are running cable through an air duct (feed OR return) then it should be plenum-rated.

2c. A large percentage of Cat5e/Cat6/etc cable sold is already riser-rated, you don't necessarily have to spend more money on it. Plenum/CMP usually costs more.

2d. Remember these guidelines are "written in blood" - riser and plenum ratings exist to **save your life**, not to make someone more money. (Mfgrs usually make *less* profit on Plenum and Riser, in fact, despite the higher cost. General/CM cables could be made with a mixture of PCBs, lead, and Klingon blood for all you know - they're almost completely unregulated in practice.) General/CM cables, when burning, can emit toxic gasses that will kill you before you notice the cable is on fire. Riser/CMR will not emit anything that, as it seeps through walls, will kill you immediately. Plenum/CMP will not emit anything that will kill you immediately, period.

3. There are also restrictions now on who is allowed to do low-voltage cabling even in residential settings. Again, fires & insurance...

3a. See the (IMHO) money-grab details, particularly the "M-V" license, at https://www.gov.mb.ca/asset_library/en/labour/docs/its/its_21_036_electricia....

3b. Since https://legacy.winnipeg.ca/ppd/Documents/Brochures/Electrical-Installations.... says you don't need a permit for voice/data/video wiring, I'm *assuming* you don't need the M-V license either, but cannot confirm that.

**** **** MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF THIS ENTIRE EMAIL: ****

3c. So if someone lacking an M-V license (and/or any qualifications as a licensed Electrician) is helping you do wiring work in your home, remember: YOU DID ALL THE WIRING YOURSELF. They were just your helper, passing you tools & supplies, keeping the area clean & tidy, and ensuring a steady supply of beer and definitely not doing any wiring for you.

Additional references to cable type: For more info, Belden has a decent explainer: https://www.belden.com/blogs/do-you-know-what-is-printed-on-your-cable-jacke... Also: https://www.truecable.com/blogs/cable-academy/the-ultimate-guide-to-plenum-r... Or: https://www.en.adiglobaldistribution.ca/cable-ratings-substitutions

-Adam

-----Original Message----- From: Trevor Cordes <trevor@tecnopolis.camailto:trevor@tecnopolis.ca> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2024 9:30 PM To: Kevin McGregor <kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.commailto:kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.com> Cc: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca> Subject: [RndTbl] Re: Network cabling (Cat 5e)

On 2024-10-24 Kevin McGregor wrote:

Is anyone handy at running residential Cat 5e? I have done it in the past, but I'm not super motivated to do it again, at least without help. Compensation of some kind is negotiable. I could just buy some

When running new cable, always run CAT6 (or better!) for future-proofing. No one ever wants to re-run cable, and the price difference is not terribly important. _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.camailto:roundtable-leave@muug.ca

_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca

This may be helpful.

https://www.hydro.mb.ca/docs/permits/residential_wiring_guide.pdf

If you pull all permits, insurance has zero argument, if that's your concern. You are allowed to do most things yourself.

On October 26, 2024 2:55:03 p.m. CDT, Adam Thompson athompso@athompso.net wrote: Legally, hiring someone licensed in the safest way. And most expensive. And for a lot of us, the silliest way. If you are the homeowner and it is your primary residence, you get to do a lot more. I just can’t find a citation that explicitly says you can do your own low-voltage stuff. The big gotcha is when a buddy who has “done lots of cat5” comes over to help, they are not legally allowed to the work unless they’re licensed. (And could in theory be fined for doing so, although someone would have to complain first so not usually a big risk.) Then, insurance companies will use any excuse to limit your claims, so make sure you’re coloring inside the lines when you do your own work. Finally, dying of toxic smoke because you were to cheap to buy less-toxic cable would be a REALLY stupid way to go :-(. I forgot about suspended ceilings – they count as plenums whether they’re performing that function or not. Not sure about Cat5, but when I buy single-mode fiber cable, the plenum-rated stuff is usually about 10% more, and the only way I can tell the difference is to examine the printing on the cable. -Adam

From: Kevin McGregor kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2024 2:42 PM To: Adam Thompson athompso@athompso.net Cc: Continuation of Round Table discussion roundtable@muug.ca Subject: Re: [RndTbl] Re: Network cabling (Cat 5e)

Are you kidding? I *always* have time for reading! :-)

Reading between the lines (do correct me) I should hire a duly certified and licensed person to run my new cables as I'm unqualified.

As an aside (not really relevant) I have never and would never run any kind of cable in air ducts. It just feels wrong to me. I did run a fair bit of Cat 5e some years ago in my previous house, but in walls and above the suspended ceiling in the basement. There is some existing network and coax run here and there in my current house; I have no idea who would have run it or what kind of cable they used.

On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 1:00 PM Adam Thompson <athompso@athompso.netmailto:athompso@athompso.net> wrote: (If you don't have time to read it all, just read 3c, 2a, and 2d in that order.)

1. In any sort of catastrophic loss, especially fire, home insurance carriers will look for convenient excuses to deny or restrict your coverage. Self-installed low-voltage cabling with the wrong rating has been used as an excuse in the past. Losing our home without insurance would bankrupt most of us. (I've even heard of insurers that will deny e.g. flood claims because of improper electrical installs - remember insurance carriers are actually in the business of *not* paying you.)

2. The three general categories of cable ratings, from worst to best from fire & code perspective, are General/CM, Riser/CMR, and Plenum/CMP. General is usually cheapest, Plenum is usually the most expensive.

2a. AFAICT, you need riser/CMR-rated (or the more expensive plenum/CMP) cable inside your walls. In most residential construction, your air ducts are the only plenums you have; if you are running cable through an air duct (feed OR return) then it should be plenum-rated.

2c. A large percentage of Cat5e/Cat6/etc cable sold is already riser-rated, you don't necessarily have to spend more money on it. Plenum/CMP usually costs more.

2d. Remember these guidelines are "written in blood" - riser and plenum ratings exist to **save your life**, not to make someone more money. (Mfgrs usually make *less* profit on Plenum and Riser, in fact, despite the higher cost. General/CM cables could be made with a mixture of PCBs, lead, and Klingon blood for all you know - they're almost completely unregulated in practice.) General/CM cables, when burning, can emit toxic gasses that will kill you before you notice the cable is on fire. Riser/CMR will not emit anything that, as it seeps through walls, will kill you immediately. Plenum/CMP will not emit anything that will kill you immediately, period.

3. There are also restrictions now on who is allowed to do low-voltage cabling even in residential settings. Again, fires & insurance...

3a. See the (IMHO) money-grab details, particularly the "M-V" license, at https://www.gov.mb.ca/asset_library/en/labour/docs/its/its_21_036_electricia....

3b. Since https://legacy.winnipeg.ca/ppd/Documents/Brochures/Electrical-Installations.... says you don't need a permit for voice/data/video wiring, I'm *assuming* you don't need the M-V license either, but cannot confirm that.

**** **** MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF THIS ENTIRE EMAIL: ****

3c. So if someone lacking an M-V license (and/or any qualifications as a licensed Electrician) is helping you do wiring work in your home, remember: YOU DID ALL THE WIRING YOURSELF. They were just your helper, passing you tools & supplies, keeping the area clean & tidy, and ensuring a steady supply of beer and definitely not doing any wiring for you.

Additional references to cable type: For more info, Belden has a decent explainer: https://www.belden.com/blogs/do-you-know-what-is-printed-on-your-cable-jacke... Also: https://www.truecable.com/blogs/cable-academy/the-ultimate-guide-to-plenum-r... Or: https://www.en.adiglobaldistribution.ca/cable-ratings-substitutions

-Adam

-----Original Message----- From: Trevor Cordes <trevor@tecnopolis.camailto:trevor@tecnopolis.ca> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2024 9:30 PM To: Kevin McGregor <kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.commailto:kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.com> Cc: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca> Subject: [RndTbl] Re: Network cabling (Cat 5e)

On 2024-10-24 Kevin McGregor wrote:

Is anyone handy at running residential Cat 5e? I have done it in the past, but I'm not super motivated to do it again, at least without help. Compensation of some kind is negotiable. I could just buy some

When running new cable, always run CAT6 (or better!) for future-proofing. No one ever wants to re-run cable, and the price difference is not terribly important. _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.camailto:roundtable-leave@muug.ca

_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca

Thanks for all that information, most informative. There is one detail that is missing regarding placement of low voltage connections and wiring. I tried to find a reference for this but couldn’t. Ensure your low voltage wiring does not share the same joist space as high voltage outlets. Depending on how the house was wired and constructed can be a challenge but a general rule is that as long as there is a wall stud between the low and high voltage wiring you should be fine.

On Sat, 26 Oct 2024, at 19:48, Adam Thompson wrote:

My main concern (#2d) was to please, for your own sake, use riser or plenum cable so you don’t die stupidly and avoidably in a fire. (*see context, below)

However, permits are not a panacea…

It is not as cut-and-dry as you’d like, unfortunately, because that guide only covers 120V work. I wish it provided clarity on LV work, too. I spent quite a while trying to determine if LV work even needs a permit or not, but was unable to come to any conclusion. So while I suspect not, I cannot prove that no permits apply.

Even with work where the permit situation is clearer, i.e. residential electrical wiring, the rules are 100% clear no matter whether you pulled a permit or not: only the homeowner (and only if it’s their primary residence) and/or a licensed professional may do the work. Homeowner’s friends and family may not do any work (err, officially, that is *cough* *cough*). Hence my original point #3c: remember, if anyone asks, you did all the work, your friend just helped!

While from a criminal law standpoint, commonwealth law countries like Canada are more or less “If it’s not explicitly disallowed, it is permitted”, and you could even argue that applies to provincial law to a large extent, it most certainly does not apply to provincial safety Regulations, which can be summed up as “if you’re licensed, you can do almost anything you want, otherwise you can only do exactly we allow you to”. People flout the regulations on a daily – probably hourly or more – basis, both in this field and others, but that doesn’t mean there will never be any consequences for any of those people. Home insurance remains one of the more common non-lethal consequences. Thankfully there aren’t very many lethal consequences involving low-voltage wiring.

Reading between the lines: ignoring the rules & regulations will probably never affect any of us, but a statistically non-zero percentage of us will see some consequence or other, someday.

Also, for context: running General/CM wire in a plenum space, and having it give off toxic gasses that kill you… well, if you live in a house built since ~1980, you’re probably already dead from all the OTHER toxic fumes from all the other crap the house is made from. We know, however, that wiring is often the very first thing on fire in an office, and can propagate the fire throughout the structure before anything else has started to smoulder. Again, homes tend to not have giant bundles of Cat5 cable in their plenum, and how much smoke can a single cable emit anyway? I just don’t believe in adding to the problem!

-Adam

From: Alberto Abrao alberto@abrao.net Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2024 4:57 PM To: Continuation of Round Table discussion roundtable@muug.ca Subject: [RndTbl] Re: Network cabling (Cat 5e)

This may be helpful.

https://www.hydro.mb.ca/docs/permits/residential_wiring_guide.pdf

If you pull all permits, insurance has zero argument, if that's your concern. You are allowed to do most things yourself.

On October 26, 2024 2:55:03 p.m. CDT, Adam Thompson <athompso@athompso.netmailto:athompso@athompso.net> wrote:

Legally, hiring someone licensed in the safest way. And most expensive. And for a lot of us, the silliest way.

If you are the homeowner and it is your primary residence, you get to do a lot more. I just can’t find a citation that explicitly says you can do your own low-voltage stuff.

The big gotcha is when a buddy who has “done lots of cat5” comes over to help, they are not legally allowed to the work unless they’re licensed. (And could in theory be fined for doing so, although someone would have to complain first so not usually a big risk.)

Then, insurance companies will use any excuse to limit your claims, so make sure you’re coloring inside the lines when you do your own work.

Finally, dying of toxic smoke because you were to cheap to buy less-toxic cable would be a REALLY stupid way to go :-(. I forgot about suspended ceilings – they count as plenums whether they’re performing that function or not.

Not sure about Cat5, but when I buy single-mode fiber cable, the plenum-rated stuff is usually about 10% more, and the only way I can tell the difference is to examine the printing on the cable.

-Adam

From: Kevin McGregor <kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.commailto:kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2024 2:42 PM To: Adam Thompson <athompso@athompso.netmailto:athompso@athompso.net> Cc: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca> Subject: Re: [RndTbl] Re: Network cabling (Cat 5e)

Are you kidding? I *always* have time for reading! :-)

Reading between the lines (do correct me) I should hire a duly certified and licensed person to run my new cables as I'm unqualified.

As an aside (not really relevant) I have never and would never run any kind of cable in air ducts. It just feels wrong to me. I did run a fair bit of Cat 5e some years ago in my previous house, but in walls and above the suspended ceiling in the basement. There is some existing network and coax run here and there in my current house; I have no idea who would have run it or what kind of cable they used.

On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 1:00 PM Adam Thompson <athompso@athompso.netmailto:athompso@athompso.net> wrote:

(If you don't have time to read it all, just read 3c, 2a, and 2d in that order.)

1. In any sort of catastrophic loss, especially fire, home insurance carriers will look for convenient excuses to deny or restrict your coverage. Self-installed low-voltage cabling with the wrong rating has been used as an excuse in the past. Losing our home without insurance would bankrupt most of us. (I've even heard of insurers that will deny e.g. flood claims because of improper electrical installs - remember insurance carriers are actually in the business of *not* paying you.)

2. The three general categories of cable ratings, from worst to best from fire & code perspective, are General/CM, Riser/CMR, and Plenum/CMP. General is usually cheapest, Plenum is usually the most expensive.

2a. AFAICT, you need riser/CMR-rated (or the more expensive plenum/CMP) cable inside your walls. In most residential construction, your air ducts are the only plenums you have; if you are running cable through an air duct (feed OR return) then it should be plenum-rated.

2c. A large percentage of Cat5e/Cat6/etc cable sold is already riser-rated, you don't necessarily have to spend more money on it. Plenum/CMP usually costs more.

2d. Remember these guidelines are "written in blood" - riser and plenum ratings exist to **save your life**, not to make someone more money. (Mfgrs usually make *less* profit on Plenum and Riser, in fact, despite the higher cost. General/CM cables could be made with a mixture of PCBs, lead, and Klingon blood for all you know - they're almost completely unregulated in practice.) General/CM cables, when burning, can emit toxic gasses that will kill you before you notice the cable is on fire. Riser/CMR will not emit anything that, as it seeps through walls, will kill you immediately. Plenum/CMP will not emit anything that will kill you immediately, period.

3. There are also restrictions now on who is allowed to do low-voltage cabling even in residential settings. Again, fires & insurance...

3a. See the (IMHO) money-grab details, particularly the "M-V" license, at https://www.gov.mb.ca/asset_library/en/labour/docs/its/its_21_036_electricia....

3b. Since https://legacy.winnipeg.ca/ppd/Documents/Brochures/Electrical-Installations.... says you don't need a permit for voice/data/video wiring, I'm *assuming* you don't need the M-V license either, but cannot confirm that.

**** **** MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF THIS ENTIRE EMAIL: ****

3c. So if someone lacking an M-V license (and/or any qualifications as a licensed Electrician) is helping you do wiring work in your home, remember: YOU DID ALL THE WIRING YOURSELF. They were just your helper, passing you tools & supplies, keeping the area clean & tidy, and ensuring a steady supply of beer and definitely not doing any wiring for you.

Additional references to cable type: For more info, Belden has a decent explainer: https://www.belden.com/blogs/do-you-know-what-is-printed-on-your-cable-jacke... Also: https://www.truecable.com/blogs/cable-academy/the-ultimate-guide-to-plenum-r... Or: https://www.en.adiglobaldistribution.ca/cable-ratings-substitutions

-Adam

-----Original Message----- From: Trevor Cordes <trevor@tecnopolis.camailto:trevor@tecnopolis.ca> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2024 9:30 PM To: Kevin McGregor <kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.commailto:kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.com> Cc: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca> Subject: [RndTbl] Re: Network cabling (Cat 5e)

On 2024-10-24 Kevin McGregor wrote:

Is anyone handy at running residential Cat 5e? I have done it in the past, but I'm not super motivated to do it again, at least without help. Compensation of some kind is negotiable. I could just buy some

When running new cable, always run CAT6 (or better!) for future-proofing. No one ever wants to re-run cable, and the price difference is not terribly important. _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.camailto:roundtable-leave@muug.ca

_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.camailto:roundtable-leave@muug.ca

-- David Milton david@dmilton.camailto:david@dmilton.ca, For better email, sign up here: http://www.fastmail.fm/?STKI=7947829

_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca

As I understand it, It’s a safety issue. AC lines can induce a voltage in an otherwise uncharged wire. It also means that problems on one side or the other cannot ”jump.” There may be other reasons as well that I’m not aware of. With low voltage wiring you do not need a box in the wall. Things I know as “caddy plates” can be used to dress the hole and allow attachment of a standard sized face plate with holes for your rj45 connectors or whatever. I suspect another reason to keep them separate is because the wall is essentially “open” and the low voltage is not in a grounded box. The last thing I want is 120V on my network cabling! There are other details too. Wires if they cross must be at 90 degree angles but crossing should be avoided if at all possible. Another way to put it is house hold electrical wires should not be running parallel to low voltage wires. Again this has everything to do with the AC lines induction on the low voltage wires.

On Sun, 27 Oct 2024, at 10:59, Hartmut W Sager wrote: First of all, thank you Adam for that superb dissertation on this whole topic, especially including the legal and safety/fire issues. Well done! I've already forwarded it to one house-owner friend of mine.

[To David Milton] Re the desired stud between low and high voltage, what is the reason? Is it simply to increase distance to avoid the high voltage AC inducing anything into the low voltage signal wiring? If the reason is different than mere distance, then note that a wooden stud (what most houses have) certainly won't reduce electro-magnetic effects.

Hartmut

On Sun 27 Oct 2024 at 08:45:27 -05:00, David Milton <david@dmilton.camailto:david@dmilton.ca> wrote: Thanks for all that information, most informative. There is one detail that is missing regarding placement of low voltage connections and wiring. I tried to find a reference for this but couldn’t. Ensure your low voltage wiring does not share the same joist space as high voltage outlets. Depending on how the house was wired and constructed can be a challenge but a general rule is that as long as there is a wall stud between the low and high voltage wiring you should be fine.

On Sat, 26 Oct 2024, at 19:48, Adam Thompson wrote:

My main concern (#2d) was to please, for your own sake, use riser or plenum cable so you don’t die stupidly and avoidably in a fire. (*see context, below)

However, permits are not a panacea…

It is not as cut-and-dry as you’d like, unfortunately, because that guide only covers 120V work. I wish it provided clarity on LV work, too. I spent quite a while trying to determine if LV work even needs a permit or not, but was unable to come to any conclusion. So while I suspect not, I cannot prove that no permits apply.

Even with work where the permit situation is clearer, i.e. residential electrical wiring, the rules are 100% clear no matter whether you pulled a permit or not: only the homeowner (and only if it’s their primary residence) and/or a licensed professional may do the work. Homeowner’s friends and family may not do any work (err, officially, that is *cough* *cough*). Hence my original point #3c: remember, if anyone asks, you did all the work, your friend just helped!

While from a criminal law standpoint, commonwealth law countries like Canada are more or less “If it’s not explicitly disallowed, it is permitted”, and you could even argue that applies to provincial law to a large extent, it most certainly does not apply to provincial safety Regulations, which can be summed up as “if you’re licensed, you can do almost anything you want, otherwise you can only do exactly we allow you to”. People flout the regulations on a daily – probably hourly or more – basis, both in this field and others, but that doesn’t mean there will never be any consequences for any of those people. Home insurance remains one of the more common non-lethal consequences. Thankfully there aren’t very many lethal consequences involving low-voltage wiring.

Reading between the lines: ignoring the rules & regulations will probably never affect any of us, but a statistically non-zero percentage of us will see some consequence or other, someday.

Also, for context: running General/CM wire in a plenum space, and having it give off toxic gasses that kill you… well, if you live in a house built since ~1980, you’re probably already dead from all the OTHER toxic fumes from all the other crap the house is made from. We know, however, that wiring is often the very first thing on fire in an office, and can propagate the fire throughout the structure before anything else has started to smoulder. Again, homes tend to not have giant bundles of Cat5 cable in their plenum, and how much smoke can a single cable emit anyway? I just don’t believe in adding to the problem!

-Adam

From: Alberto Abrao alberto@abrao.net Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2024 4:57 PM To: Continuation of Round Table discussion roundtable@muug.ca Subject: [RndTbl] Re: Network cabling (Cat 5e)

This may be helpful.

https://www.hydro.mb.ca/docs/permits/residential_wiring_guide.pdf

If you pull all permits, insurance has zero argument, if that's your concern. You are allowed to do most things yourself.

On October 26, 2024 2:55:03 p.m. CDT, Adam Thompson <athompso@athompso.netmailto:athompso@athompso.net> wrote:

Legally, hiring someone licensed in the safest way. And most expensive. And for a lot of us, the silliest way.

If you are the homeowner and it is your primary residence, you get to do a lot more. I just can’t find a citation that explicitly says you can do your own low-voltage stuff.

The big gotcha is when a buddy who has “done lots of cat5” comes over to help, they are not legally allowed to the work unless they’re licensed. (And could in theory be fined for doing so, although someone would have to complain first so not usually a big risk.)

Then, insurance companies will use any excuse to limit your claims, so make sure you’re coloring inside the lines when you do your own work.

Finally, dying of toxic smoke because you were to cheap to buy less-toxic cable would be a REALLY stupid way to go :-(. I forgot about suspended ceilings – they count as plenums whether they’re performing that function or not.

Not sure about Cat5, but when I buy single-mode fiber cable, the plenum-rated stuff is usually about 10% more, and the only way I can tell the difference is to examine the printing on the cable.

-Adam

From: Kevin McGregor <kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.commailto:kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2024 2:42 PM To: Adam Thompson <athompso@athompso.netmailto:athompso@athompso.net> Cc: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca> Subject: Re: [RndTbl] Re: Network cabling (Cat 5e)

Are you kidding? I *always* have time for reading! :-)

Reading between the lines (do correct me) I should hire a duly certified and licensed person to run my new cables as I'm unqualified.

As an aside (not really relevant) I have never and would never run any kind of cable in air ducts. It just feels wrong to me. I did run a fair bit of Cat 5e some years ago in my previous house, but in walls and above the suspended ceiling in the basement. There is some existing network and coax run here and there in my current house; I have no idea who would have run it or what kind of cable they used.

On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 1:00 PM Adam Thompson <athompso@athompso.netmailto:athompso@athompso.net> wrote:

(If you don't have time to read it all, just read 3c, 2a, and 2d in that order.)

1. In any sort of catastrophic loss, especially fire, home insurance carriers will look for convenient excuses to deny or restrict your coverage. Self-installed low-voltage cabling with the wrong rating has been used as an excuse in the past. Losing our home without insurance would bankrupt most of us. (I've even heard of insurers that will deny e.g. flood claims because of improper electrical installs - remember insurance carriers are actually in the business of *not* paying you.)

2. The three general categories of cable ratings, from worst to best from fire & code perspective, are General/CM, Riser/CMR, and Plenum/CMP. General is usually cheapest, Plenum is usually the most expensive.

2a. AFAICT, you need riser/CMR-rated (or the more expensive plenum/CMP) cable inside your walls. In most residential construction, your air ducts are the only plenums you have; if you are running cable through an air duct (feed OR return) then it should be plenum-rated.

2c. A large percentage of Cat5e/Cat6/etc cable sold is already riser-rated, you don't necessarily have to spend more money on it. Plenum/CMP usually costs more.

2d. Remember these guidelines are "written in blood" - riser and plenum ratings exist to **save your life**, not to make someone more money. (Mfgrs usually make *less* profit on Plenum and Riser, in fact, despite the higher cost. General/CM cables could be made with a mixture of PCBs, lead, and Klingon blood for all you know - they're almost completely unregulated in practice.) General/CM cables, when burning, can emit toxic gasses that will kill you before you notice the cable is on fire. Riser/CMR will not emit anything that, as it seeps through walls, will kill you immediately. Plenum/CMP will not emit anything that will kill you immediately, period.

3. There are also restrictions now on who is allowed to do low-voltage cabling even in residential settings. Again, fires & insurance...

3a. See the (IMHO) money-grab details, particularly the "M-V" license, at https://www.gov.mb.ca/asset_library/en/labour/docs/its/its_21_036_electricia....

3b. Since https://legacy.winnipeg.ca/ppd/Documents/Brochures/Electrical-Installations.... says you don't need a permit for voice/data/video wiring, I'm *assuming* you don't need the M-V license either, but cannot confirm that.

**** **** MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF THIS ENTIRE EMAIL: ****

3c. So if someone lacking an M-V license (and/or any qualifications as a licensed Electrician) is helping you do wiring work in your home, remember: YOU DID ALL THE WIRING YOURSELF. They were just your helper, passing you tools & supplies, keeping the area clean & tidy, and ensuring a steady supply of beer and definitely not doing any wiring for you.

Additional references to cable type: For more info, Belden has a decent explainer: https://www.belden.com/blogs/do-you-know-what-is-printed-on-your-cable-jacke... Also: https://www.truecable.com/blogs/cable-academy/the-ultimate-guide-to-plenum-r... Or: https://www.en.adiglobaldistribution.ca/cable-ratings-substitutions

-Adam

-----Original Message----- From: Trevor Cordes <trevor@tecnopolis.camailto:trevor@tecnopolis.ca> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2024 9:30 PM To: Kevin McGregor <kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.commailto:kevin.a.mcgregor@gmail.com> Cc: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca> Subject: [RndTbl] Re: Network cabling (Cat 5e)

On 2024-10-24 Kevin McGregor wrote:

Is anyone handy at running residential Cat 5e? I have done it in the past, but I'm not super motivated to do it again, at least without help. Compensation of some kind is negotiable. I could just buy some

When running new cable, always run CAT6 (or better!) for future-proofing. No one ever wants to re-run cable, and the price difference is not terribly important. _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.camailto:roundtable-leave@muug.ca

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I agree on the plenum grade cable regardless but I like to get my ducts cleaned every couple of years and I cringe just thinking of having those mechanical brushes spinning around with my network cable in there. That said, I’ve found the best way (at least in the place I’m in now) to get from the basement to the second story is to follow the plumbing stack into the attic and then drop down into the interior walls from there. Yes, it does mean longer runs but it also avoids running anything through the ductwork.

On Oct 30, 2024, at 01:27, Trevor Cordes trevor@tecnopolis.ca wrote:

Saying "I don't go through return air conduits" sounds good in theory, but in a 2-story house it's nearly impossible to get cables from basement to top floor without using them. And as Adam said, even false ceilings count as plenum.

Personally I just use plenum-rated for everything as why stock more than one type, and there's no downside, except maybe it seems a bit stiffer. Cost really isn't a factor when you're just working on your house for a few runs, as it's your time that is the biggest "cost" for any cable work. (That's why I say always run CAT6 or better, too!) _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca

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