Does anyone here know things about Shaw's use of RBL etc? They appear to have some private lists they use, and it's outsourced somewhere so support is hard to come by. _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca
On 2024-11-28 Scott Toderash wrote:
Does anyone here know things about Shaw's use of RBL etc? They appear to have some private lists they use, and it's outsourced somewhere so support is hard to come by.
I've fought a lot with working with and around Shaw's email limitations... what exactly are you asking about? Incoming email to you? To your @shaw.ca email address or your own domain?
Maybe some concrete examples of what is not behaving the way you think it should would help. _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca
We have some issues with outbound SMTP - some messages are not being accepted by Shaw. We run our own outbound smtp service for hosted domains.
I can find some examples but mainly what I'm trying to find is a contact at Shaw that we can work with.
On 2024-11-28 20:37, Trevor Cordes wrote:
On 2024-11-28 Scott Toderash wrote:
Does anyone here know things about Shaw's use of RBL etc? They appear to have some private lists they use, and it's outsourced somewhere so support is hard to come by.
I've fought a lot with working with and around Shaw's email limitations... what exactly are you asking about? Incoming email to you? To your @shaw.ca email address or your own domain?
Maybe some concrete examples of what is not behaving the way you think it should would help.
_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca
On 2024-11-28 Scott Toderash wrote:
We have some issues with outbound SMTP - some messages are not being accepted by Shaw. We run our own outbound smtp service for hosted domains.
You mean you're using Shaw as your "smarthost" to send all of your outgoing email via? And you run your own email server that does so?
Are you on Shaw business or residential?
You're saying that using Shaw in this manner they are RBLing some of your outgoing emails through their system? Drops or bounces?
An RBL on Shaw's server in this scenario would/may be weird. Are you sure it's not RBL's at your recipient servers instead?
I can find some examples but mainly what I'm trying to find is a contact at Shaw that we can work with.
Haha! Good one! Best laugh all week.
If you have a business account, *maybe* you can get someone who knows something at that tier of knowledge. But I doubt it!
Any further info you can provide would help us diagnose this for you. Good luck! _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca
No, my server is the smarthost for a bunch of other servers that I run. Various Shaw customers are the recipients. Regular folks. Totally out of my control.
I am not a Shaw customer at all. That's what makes this more difficult. They appear to have a private blacklist and I wish I could find out more about it.
On 2024-11-28 21:46, Trevor Cordes wrote:
On 2024-11-28 Scott Toderash wrote:
We have some issues with outbound SMTP - some messages are not being accepted by Shaw. We run our own outbound smtp service for hosted domains.
You mean you're using Shaw as your "smarthost" to send all of your outgoing email via? And you run your own email server that does so?
Are you on Shaw business or residential?
You're saying that using Shaw in this manner they are RBLing some of your outgoing emails through their system? Drops or bounces?
An RBL on Shaw's server in this scenario would/may be weird. Are you sure it's not RBL's at your recipient servers instead?
I can find some examples but mainly what I'm trying to find is a contact at Shaw that we can work with.
Haha! Good one! Best laugh all week.
If you have a business account, *maybe* you can get someone who knows something at that tier of knowledge. But I doubt it!
Any further info you can provide would help us diagnose this for you. Good luck!
_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca
Scott, my posting was composed and sent on the very same minute as your newest posting (thus overlapped), in case you're wondering.
Hartmut
On Fri 29 Nov 2024 at 06:37:53 -06:00, Scott Toderash <scott@100percenthelpdesk.commailto:scott@100percenthelpdesk.com> wrote: No, my server is the smarthost for a bunch of other servers that I run. Various Shaw customers are the recipients. Regular folks. Totally out of my control.
I am not a Shaw customer at all. That's what makes this more difficult. They appear to have a private blacklist and I wish I could find out more about it.
_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca
On 2024-11-29 Scott Toderash wrote:
No, my server is the smarthost for a bunch of other servers that I run. Various Shaw customers are the recipients. Regular folks. Totally out of my control.
I am not a Shaw customer at all. That's what makes this more difficult. They appear to have a private blacklist and I wish I could find out more about it.
Ah, so you're a server somewhere external to shaw just trying to get your emails through to people with @shaw email addresses, eh? Yes, now RBLs make more sense.
Are you getting blanket blocked by IP or just from-address blocked on certain domains you smarthost for? Or even just certain email addresses within a domain?
Bounce or drops?
Have you made sure you are passing all DMARC, SPF, DKIM? (See my presentation notes from May 7, 2024: https://muug.ca/meetings/23-24.html )
I do similar to you, at a pretty massive scale, and I've never noticed a problem with Shaw in particular. As all these companies (and their 3rd party providers) get stricter on DMARC/etc you may find RBL-like occurrences pop up -- but they are really DMARC/etc issues.
Note, it looks like shaw outsources MX to cloudfilter.net, so you could investigate what they are doing for RBL and what they are requiring for DMARC, etc. (Turning on DMARC reporting temporarily may help troubleshoot.) _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca
I'll shill for a friend here: Michael W. Lucas, "Run Your Own Mailserver", Windmill Press, 2024. https://mwl.io/nonfiction/tools#ryoms It's not actually for anyone clueless, it has clues aplenty even for the clueful. -Adam
-----Original Message----- From: Trevor Cordes trevor@tecnopolis.ca Sent: November 30, 2024 23:53 To: Scott Toderash scott@100percenthelpdesk.com Cc: Continuation of Round Table discussion roundtable@muug.ca Subject: [RndTbl] Re: shaw email blacklist
On 2024-11-29 Scott Toderash wrote:
No, my server is the smarthost for a bunch of other servers that I run. Various Shaw customers are the recipients. Regular folks. Totally out of my control.
I am not a Shaw customer at all. That's what makes this more difficult. They appear to have a private blacklist and I wish I could find out more about it.
Ah, so you're a server somewhere external to shaw just trying to get your emails through to people with @shaw email addresses, eh? Yes, now RBLs make more sense.
Are you getting blanket blocked by IP or just from-address blocked on certain domains you smarthost for? Or even just certain email addresses within a domain?
Bounce or drops?
Have you made sure you are passing all DMARC, SPF, DKIM? (See my presentation notes from May 7, 2024: https://muug.ca/meetings/23-24.html )
I do similar to you, at a pretty massive scale, and I've never noticed a problem with Shaw in particular. As all these companies (and their 3rd party providers) get stricter on DMARC/etc you may find RBL-like occurrences pop up -- but they are really DMARC/etc issues.
Note, it looks like shaw outsources MX to cloudfilter.net, so you could investigate what they are doing for RBL and what they are requiring for DMARC, etc. (Turning on DMARC reporting temporarily may help troubleshoot.) _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca
DMARC is a good suggestion. There are hundreds of domains so some are surely not set up correctly. I think we've reviewed the bigger/higher volume ones but that's something good to follow up on.
I'll see what I can find out about cloudfilter.net, in case there is anything more to know about them.
I'll see what more detail I can find from what happens with it this week.
And, if all else, fails, read a book... That may be worthwhile too Adam.
On 2024-11-30 23:56, Adam Thompson wrote:
I'll shill for a friend here: Michael W. Lucas, "Run Your Own Mailserver", Windmill Press, 2024. https://mwl.io/nonfiction/tools#ryoms It's not actually for anyone clueless, it has clues aplenty even for the clueful. -Adam
-----Original Message----- From: Trevor Cordes trevor@tecnopolis.ca Sent: November 30, 2024 23:53 To: Scott Toderash scott@100percenthelpdesk.com Cc: Continuation of Round Table discussion roundtable@muug.ca Subject: [RndTbl] Re: shaw email blacklist
On 2024-11-29 Scott Toderash wrote:
No, my server is the smarthost for a bunch of other servers that I run. Various Shaw customers are the recipients. Regular folks. Totally out of my control.
I am not a Shaw customer at all. That's what makes this more difficult. They appear to have a private blacklist and I wish I could find out more about it.
Ah, so you're a server somewhere external to shaw just trying to get your emails through to people with @shaw email addresses, eh? Yes, now RBLs make more sense.
Are you getting blanket blocked by IP or just from-address blocked on certain domains you smarthost for? Or even just certain email addresses within a domain?
Bounce or drops?
Have you made sure you are passing all DMARC, SPF, DKIM? (See my presentation notes from May 7, 2024: https://muug.ca/meetings/23-24.html )
I do similar to you, at a pretty massive scale, and I've never noticed a problem with Shaw in particular. As all these companies (and their 3rd party providers) get stricter on DMARC/etc you may find RBL-like occurrences pop up -- but they are really DMARC/etc issues.
Note, it looks like shaw outsources MX to cloudfilter.net, so you could investigate what they are doing for RBL and what they are requiring for DMARC, etc. (Turning on DMARC reporting temporarily may help troubleshoot.) _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca
_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.ca
When I previously replied, mentioning Gmail's infamous "silent discards" (at both send and receive ends), I didn't mention SPF/DKIM/DMARC yet, but now that this thread is moving away from Shaw being the likely culprit, I want to wholeheartedly endorse getting the whole SPF/DKIM/DMARC act together on these custom domains.
That's what I've been doing for a number of years for customers and friends, and it has helped greatly. There will still be problems even after having perfect SPF/DKIM/DMARC triple-pass, due to the additional consumer-oriented algorithms, that many systems use (especially Gmail, once again), but it sure is a good major first step.
One additional caveat, which I've been dealing with in the last 2+ years: If the initial receiving system is set up to forward incoming e-mail onward to additional addresses (most consumer systems have that feature), the forwarding mechanisms vary (including what they add to the header), and that sometimes breaks DKIM/DMARC and/or signatures that are computed on the original e-mail. Sometimes, different receiving servers give different treatments to the very same e-mail in such a case (I'm diagnosing such a case right now).
These problems are the worst with consumer e-mail systems (Gmail, MS Mail, Yahoo, etc.) which, by consumer demand, err on the side of protecting the consumer with excessive rejections/discards, whereas biz/pro e-mail systems allow (at least optionally) all e-mail to be sent/received.
Oh, and get ready for BIMI to join SPF/DKIM/DMARC. BIMI involves the authentication of logo/icon-type images in the signature of sent e-mails.
Hartmut
On Sun 01 Dec 2024 at 07:24:41 -06:00, Scott Toderash <scott@100percenthelpdesk.commailto:scott@100percenthelpdesk.com> wrote: DMARC is a good suggestion. There are hundreds of domains so some are surely not set up correctly. I think we've reviewed the bigger/higher volume ones but that's something good to follow up on.
I'll see what I can find out about cloudfilter.net, in case there is anything more to know about them.
I'll see what more detail I can find from what happens with it this week.
And, if all else, fails, read a book... That may be worthwhile too Adam.
On 2024-11-30 23:56, Adam Thompson wrote:
I'll shill for a friend here: Michael W. Lucas, "Run Your Own Mailserver", Windmill Press, 2024. https://mwl.io/nonfiction/tools#ryoms It's not actually for anyone clueless, it has clues aplenty even for the clueful. -Adam
-----Original Message----- From: Trevor Cordes <trevor@tecnopolis.camailto:trevor@tecnopolis.ca> Sent: November 30, 2024 23:53 To: Scott Toderash <scott@100percenthelpdesk.commailto:scott@100percenthelpdesk.com> Cc: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca> Subject: [RndTbl] Re: shaw email blacklist
On 2024-11-29 Scott Toderash wrote:
No, my server is the smarthost for a bunch of other servers that I run. Various Shaw customers are the recipients. Regular folks. Totally out of my control.
I am not a Shaw customer at all. That's what makes this more difficult. They appear to have a private blacklist and I wish I could find out more about it.
Ah, so you're a server somewhere external to shaw just trying to get your emails through to people with @shaw email addresses, eh? Yes, now RBLs make more sense.
Are you getting blanket blocked by IP or just from-address blocked on certain domains you smarthost for? Or even just certain email addresses within a domain?
Bounce or drops?
Have you made sure you are passing all DMARC, SPF, DKIM? (See my presentation notes from May 7, 2024: https://muug.ca/meetings/23-24.html )
I do similar to you, at a pretty massive scale, and I've never noticed a problem with Shaw in particular. As all these companies (and their 3rd party providers) get stricter on DMARC/etc you may find RBL-like occurrences pop up -- but they are really DMARC/etc issues.
Note, it looks like shaw outsources MX to cloudfilter.net, so you could investigate what they are doing for RBL and what they are requiring for DMARC, etc. (Turning on DMARC reporting temporarily may help troubleshoot.) _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.camailto:roundtable-leave@muug.ca
_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.camailto:roundtable-leave@muug.ca
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I have some major thoughts and experiences on this stuff, but I'll wait until you (Scott) give us some accurate, specific answers to the questions Trevor has posed (I too was raising similar questions in my mind).
I especially have a lot to say about Gmail's obnoxious "silent discards" that Gmail implemented in the last few years, both for incoming and outgoing e-mail. The incoming problems would apply to you if part of your problem is "silent discards" (no bounce-back and no SMTP-to-MX refusal) of mail sent to Gmail addresses.
Outgoing Gmail from the sender's own domain (for which Gmail requires the sender to supply the SMTP server) would apply to you if those e-mails into your Shaw system don't arrive, since that could readily be a case of Gmail "silent discards" at their sending end, rather than a Shaw problem.
So you see, we need much more specific accurate info.
Hartmut
On Thu 28 Nov 2024 at 21:46:48 -06:00, Trevor Cordes <trevor@tecnopolis.camailto:trevor@tecnopolis.ca> wrote: On 2024-11-28 Scott Toderash wrote:
We have some issues with outbound SMTP - some messages are not being accepted by Shaw. We run our own outbound smtp service for hosted domains.
You mean you're using Shaw as your "smarthost" to send all of your outgoing email via? And you run your own email server that does so?
Are you on Shaw business or residential?
You're saying that using Shaw in this manner they are RBLing some of your outgoing emails through their system? Drops or bounces?
An RBL on Shaw's server in this scenario would/may be weird. Are you sure it's not RBL's at your recipient servers instead?
I can find some examples but mainly what I'm trying to find is a contact at Shaw that we can work with.
Haha! Good one! Best laugh all week.
If you have a business account, *maybe* you can get someone who knows something at that tier of knowledge. But I doubt it!
Any further info you can provide would help us diagnose this for you. Good luck! _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list -- roundtable@muug.camailto:roundtable@muug.ca To unsubscribe send an email to roundtable-leave@muug.camailto:roundtable-leave@muug.ca
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Adam Thompson -
Hartmut W Sager -
Scott Toderash -
Trevor Cordes